Poll: Include jQuery by Default in BS5 Designs?

As you may know, we don’t include jQuery in new Bootstrap 5 designs, and everyone who needs it can switch it on from the Settings (designs that are upgraded from BS4 to BS5 continue including jQuery).

At the same time many beginners expect jQuery to be available. They may use components form the online library which depend on jQuery, or paste third party JS snippets from the web. As a result, their new designs throw errors and JS doesn’t execute at all, because jQuery is missing.

We want to hear your opinion if we should change the default, and always include jQuery in new designs (you will be able to switch it off of course)?

  • Yes, include jQuery in new BS5 designs.
  • No, don’t include jQuery in new BS5 designs.

0 voters

I would say include it, because those who know they don’t need it will just disable it. Those who don’t know any better, will appreciate the forethought on the part of the BSS developers.

My vote is no - vanilla JS is the future. BS old-hats will know what to do if they want jQuery. People learning BS from today are going to use 5.0. My 2c.

3 Likes

Not including it is just going to lead to loads more Forum questions from beginners along the lines of, “I just added this script I found on XYZ to my BSS website and it’s not working.” Also, there are many library components that depend on JQuery. Adding it will cut down on the amount of unnecessary questions filling up the forum. People are still going to be building websites with Bootstrap 4.x for months (if not years) to come.

Once BS5 becomes the predominant version of the Bootstrap Framework in use, the devs can phase out JQuery. Meanwhile, I don’t see it hurting anyone by including it during the transitional period. Just my opinion.

I would say add it as well. Personally I’m missing the point totally as to why it was removed (ya I suck at reading up on things lol). Anyways it will save us on the forums a lot more headaches having to repeat ourselves over and over on it (well not me persay, but those that already have since it’s release).

@Plutarch I would have to disagree with you on whether people learning BS at any given time are going to know about it and what to do. There are a lot of newbie website creators (can’t even call many of them designers yet) that will come across Bootstrap Studio not even realizing that it’s all about Bootstrap Framework, and just think they came across a really awesome piece of software. Then the questions come (as they have already) about why this doesn’t work and that doesn’t work etc.

Just sayin’ there’s a lot of variables (no pun intended lol) that come into play with web design knowledge or lack thereof.

Fair enough, understood.

On a slight tangent - BS5 does feel like a ‘new beginning’ somewhat - a big step forward - a clean slate. And everything is about being ‘clean’ now. But I understand that poetically echoing this philosophy would need to take second place to practical considerations as per what you are saying (if it is indeed a problem).

I’m definitely no expert in Javascript, but I believe JQuery was one of many Javascript frameworks that (for a time,) offered certain features that were unavailable in plain, vanilla Javascript. (like animations.) Over time, Javascript matured and added things it was missing, and other solutions came along (like CSS transitions, Greensock, etc…) that do what JQuery did, only they do better, faster, and more efficiently. If you do a Google search, you’ll find articles from 2019 stating that JQuery’s days were numbered. But when it debuted, it was really kind of amazing because it did things that you couldn’t easily do any other way.

This is the nature of the web. Constant evolution, deprecation, and we poor souls who call ourselves “web developers” are tasked with trying to stay ahead of the curve, so we ourselves don’t become obsolete.

My guess (and fear) is that 10 years from now, web design will only vaguely resemble what it does today. I remember 8-9 years ago how debates were starting to rage online about whether responsive web design was the future. By 2016, it was clear that responsive sites were the future, and Google cemented it in stone when they started penalizing static sites in the SERPS. Now, it would be almost unthinkable to try and sell someone a static website.

100% No, version 5 dumped it for a reason and rightly so, please do your part in doing the same. :wink:

1 Like

@bss_user Well that’s the thing here, @martin is saying that if we “don’t” want it, we can turn it off. I know for me I use way too many scripts with jquery in them that I’m not prepared to replace at this time (nor are ,my clients willing to pay for it), so they will stay until such a time that I can get to that aspect. As I’m sure you’ve already seen, there’s already been a number of people coming to the forums here to find out why things don’t work for them and many of them have had to turn the feature on. I’m betting there are probably more that will need to turn it on, than there are of us that will want it off. Just speculating of course. So far the count is even but I know there are more than 15ish people using this app, they just aren’t here on the forums to vote.

I guess what I’m saying is, it’s easier for those of us that have an idea of what is going on with Bootstrap these days to turn it off, than it is for us to have to manage all the posters that don’t understand why their scripts don’t work, for us to tell them to turn it on. Just my opinion of coursee. :slight_smile:

1 Like

I am with Jo on this. the BSS devs can always remove JQuery as Bootstrap 5 matures, but there should be a transitional process when major things change, because as a general rule, people are not comfortable with (even minor) change. Newbies are confused especially easily.

This is not to say I don’t get @bss_user 's mentality. JQuery is gone, so throw the kids into the deep end of the pool, and whomever swims, swims, and whomever sinks, sinks.

But my thinking is this… I love BSS. It has totally changed my business, and I’ve made hundreds of thousands of dollars thanks to this software. I won’t lie. I have machiavellian motives. I want this software to continue to evolve. I don’t want people to buy it, and then abandon it out of frustration, switching to Wix or Wordpress or Webflow.

As a business owner, I know that in order for BSS to keep improving, the developers have to keep selling new copies of the software so they can keep reinvesting in its development (unless Martin is secretly a billionaire and is doing this for relaxation :stuck_out_tongue:.)

The website builder marketplace is already flooded with competing products, but BSS occupies a fairly unique niche. It’s very inexpensive (basically a steal.) It’s very powerful. It’s not cloud-based or subscription-based (both big pluses in my book.) It’s comprehensible for beginners, and powerful for experienced developers. The BSS development team is clearly passionate, and super responsive to the users. This is a dying business ethic in this day and age. It’s almost like we who use BSS are like a small family.

So while it can be time consuming, (and occasionally frustrating,) I know that my “helping” new users here in the Forum is ultimately benefiting me, because every person who becomes a BSS “convert” also becomes an advocate for the software. I have recommended this program to many people, and at least 2 of them have purchased it. Two copies sold maybe means Martin makes his payroll this week. Ten copies sold maybe means he is able to hire a new developer, and in the end, that benefits all of us who use the software.

So the easier it is for people like me and you and Jo and Kuli and Twinstream and some of the others (please don’t feel neglected if I didn’t mention your name) to guide newbies into becoming devotees, the better it is for us all in the long run. They can always yank JQuery 6 or 12 months down the road, once Bootstrap 5 has really become mainstream.

Personally, I still haven’t even built a new site in BS5. I have two sites under construction that I started in 4.x about 2 months ago, and I’ll probably keep them in 4.x until I really have some free time to look over all the new features in BS5. It seems like I always have a mountain of reading to do just to stay relevant in this profession :confused:.

:–) Ok I’ll expound upon my singular sentence above. It just seems odd to me for the app to be contrary to the official Bootstrap migration by default. Users need to be made aware and learn at some point and it seems out of the gate is the best time to set such a precedent for those using Bootstrap v5. My contention is leave it off and be true to form with Bootstrap v5. By contrast if people want or need jQuery they can enabled it.

Though if the BSS developers truly feel it’s a concern they can simply auto detect the jQuery requirement in the app. Then no toggle is needed and the process is transparent for all users if indeed it’s an issue and they want to streamline the user experience for beginners.

I guess I would like to know what caused @Martin to create such a poll feeling a need to rethink things? Are the BSS Devs getting lots of direct support inquiries? Because here on the forum from what I’ve seen there has not been a slew of related questions ( one (others?)) from confused users. Bootstrap v5 has been supported in BSS for a while now, so the forum does not seem to be the measure. Plus a quick search by users in the ever expanding (currently being overhauled) Bootstrap Studio documentation yields a quick answer. Maybe the docs could be made more self-evident and it could be called out more explicitly in the docs side menu, BS4 vs BS5, jQuery, etc., ?

By the same token if people are averse to change, then what if users likewise want to use old Bootstrap v4 classes they have committed to memory for years, or still support IE ? In my opinion people need to be made aware and learn of all the changes that Bootstrap v5 brought forth including the absence of jQuery.

So in general it seems odd that the app would be contrary to the official Bootstrap migration by default in an app that tries to adhere strictly to the official Bootstrap standards. I’m not trying to be an adversary - thats just my personal point of view. :wink:

1 Like

I DO agree that ultimately, BSS should be in accordance with the official Bootstrap release.

HOWEVER, BSS does do at least one thing that Bootstrap doesn’t do - the online Component library. This is currently a total wildcard. What happens when a newbie starts a new site (which will be in BS5 by default) and tries to installs a library component dependent on JQuery? Obviously it won’t work. What happens when someone tries to add a new library component that uses JQuery. Should the program automatically include the library by default?

So they’re going to have to make a decision. Revamp the library so that every component that relies on JQuery includes it, or auto activates it in BS5 websites, or have a system in place that prevents people from using older JQuery-dependent library components in websites built using BS5, or maybe have some sort of pop-up notification? I don’t know the perfect solution here, or if this will be the only scenario where such an issues will arise, but it’s definitely going to cause confusion, and my guess is, the confused people will post in the Forum before contacting BSS support. You know the saying… :poop: rolls downhill. :stuck_out_tongue:

At some point this will need to be addressed. My guess is, the devs plan on doing this, so maybe the purpose of including JQuery in BS5 sites for a short time is to buy them the time they need to fix the component library?

I like the idea of auto detect actually, but I wonder how that will affect the online components as well. My thoughts would be:

How will it affect those that are just testing out different components? I know I install and uninstall a lot of them as I check them out. Does that mean if I choose a BS4 component (which still does work in BS5) it will turn on the JQuery setting if I have it off? Then when I uninstall it, is it going to turn the setting back off? I get times where I decide to see what’s new and could install 10+ components to check them out (not as much now as it used to be thanks to the great preview setup for them, love that feature!). That’s a lot of setting on/off in my opinion. Still if it were an option I would be more inclined to say let the app handle it too.

That way if I have things installed already, it will automatically turn it on for that project, if I don’t it leaves it off until such a time as I install something that needs it, or add something that needs it. I like that idea myself.

Regarding auto detecting jQuery, as one approach it could be present although hidden in BS5 projects. So it would just work concerning components, snippets, etc. Since the in-app preview and export are two separate things the app could simply look for jQuery references upon export. If there are any found then it includes the library as part of the export and if not then it omits its inclusion. There could be various ways other ways this could be automated the above being just one approach. I hate to keep referencing another app but I think that’s essentially what Blocs app is doing with Bootstrap v5?

With 5.7 it will eventually include “Improvements to Online Components - They will be organized info frameworks BS3, BS4 and BS5, so you can easily find what you need.”

Which I hope will help people from mixing and matching across versions as that seems like another rather messy situation waiting to happen in various regards for users.

This poll appears to be a toggle itself at 50 / 50.

So would JQuery not work in preview mode? That would be kind of annoying, because I often want to see how scripts function in the browser without having to go through the whole export and upload process.

With what I described above, yes they would.